Religion – My purpose in this article is to prove that lying is not automatically a sin by showing examples where God commended lying in certain circumstances and even lied Himself.
"Love your neighbor as yourself" and "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" do not equate to "lying is OK because the end justifies the means".
Were this article written by a non-Christian, I'd say it was an attempt to discredit Christianity. It's not clear to me WHAT religion the author holds, however. Perhaps the author is merely trying to justify lying with "well, God did it".
God supposedly drowned an entire planet; drowning your kids or the neighbor's cat is unacceptable. God supposedly sent plagues and the "angel of death" to smite thousands; for me to go "smite" even ONE person is unacceptable.
If we are legally and morally accountable for our own actions, then attempting to blame God for your lying is unacceptable, and as childish as saying, "well, Billy did it, so I thought I could, too".
Folks, don't lie to people; it's not right, regardless of whether or not there's a God.
"Were this article written by a non-Christian"
Actually she is a Christian. Check the home page.
"Folks, don't lie to people; it's not right, regardless of whether or not there's a God."
Totally agree.
Incredibly so, DavidHalko. But, it's a diversion tactic that seems to pull one's attention from the fact that one is awarded with child molestation if you kill or are killed in the cause of Allah. Or, are these eternally beautiful, young boys NOT boys, and the Black-eyed virgins NOT young girls? What is a virgin, if not a child?
How about Samuel?
"With this in mind consider the case of Samuel (1 Sam. 16:1, 2). God told Samuel to go to the house of Jesse and anoint a new king of Israel. Samuel was afraid of Saul, what he would do if he found out he was going to anoint his replacement. So God told Samuel, "Just tell him you're going to make a sacrifice."* God told him to lie. Some people explain that away by suggesting that Samuel would indeed be making a sacrifice in the process of anointing a king. This is beside the point. The intention to give Saul the wrong impression was clearly present. God told Samuel to lie."
Abraham and Isaac
Two other cases of lying were when Abraham, out of fear, told the king of Egypt that Sarah was his sister and not his wife (Gen. 12:11-20, 20:1-12), and later Isaac did the same thing with Rebecca (Gen. 26:7). Some again say that Sarah was Abraham's half cousin so he was technically correct. Once again, the intention was to mislead. What was interesting in both these cases is that God had to intervene to bail them out. This is the same God who did not intervene to prevent Abraham from "going unto" Hagar and bringing Ishmael into this world. I dare say that God didn't really think Abraham's and Isaac's lies were such big deals.
Can you explain these verses to us.
Thanks
That first one DOES sound like deception, mu. I agree. However, the second one is dealing with the problems of deception caused by Abraham and other Biblical character. What's creepy as hell is, is IF God is deceptive, as one might infer from what you have posted about 1 Samuel, then we're ALL screwed!!! Because that means not only is ALLAH a deceiver, but my God as well. And, if my God is a liar, like YOUR God, then ANYthing is up for grabs. DO we want to view our "gods" as liars here, mu? Are you SURE you want to go there? Wouldn't that be something if, thinking we were headed for Heaven, it's actually... who knows what, because you MIGHT be right about 1 Samuel? Well, for my own sanity sake, I'm going to believe 1 Samuel DOESN'T show my God as a liar. If God is, "He" might as WELL be "Allah", according to the Quranic scriptures of Allah being a deceiver that I'm familiar with.
Listen this is in your Bible I never said that God is a Liar.
"And, They (Allah) ARE deceivers. I have the Quranic scriptural proof that I'll present sometime."
8:30. Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah.
It's planner not deceivers.
Here is the Tafsir:
(And (remember) when the disbelievers plotted against you to imprison you, or to kill you, or to expel you (from Makkah); they were plotting and Allah too was plotting; and Allah is the best of plotters.)
Those aren't the scriptures I'm thinking about muhair. Would you like me to present the ones that SHOW Allah deceives? And, since They (Allah) IS a deceiver, how can one possibly believe that They (Allah), won't be deceiving YOU? How can you trust a deceiver? You WANT me to present those scriptures, mu? I'll be glad to.
Stop wasting my time and show us these verses.
This is a PM from Mutainia:
From: Mutainia To: muhairi8
"Stop wasting my time and show us these verses."
"I don't want to present them here where you can deny them. I want to present them where others, God willing, can read them and decide for themselves, OK? YOU pick the article you want me to comment in, and, I shall place them THERE."
Place them where ever you want just tell me when you do.
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I think Bible is full of lies and deceptions built around a few words of God.
I think all scriptures are full of lie and deceptions, no supernatural intervention involved.
well I am sure the people that wrote it, thought it was true.
...and the basis of their truth was founded in a realm of misunderstanding and ignorance of basic things that we now know and have proven to be true, for instance:
1) the flat earth theory,
2) the sun revolves around the earth,
3) theory that stars will fall to the earth,
4) night and day were created before the sun and moon,
5) in genesis 1:16 where God created two lights, the sun and moon (The moon is not a light but a reflecting surface reflecting the rays of the sun)
They did not have the intellect to fathom that which we can today.
About the flat earth theory:
"The Bible says the Earth is flat." - Not Quite
http://religion.propeller.com/story/2007/10/18/...
What about the rest...?
the author of that could only dispute one passage to be incorrect out of I believe almost a dozen examples of the bible stating the earth was flat.
My favorite was the devil taking Jesus to a high mountain where they viewed all the kingdoms of the world.
That could only be possible if the world was flat.
Lets look at the order of things,
Heavens and Earth are created first, then some light comes into existance, which cant be the sun or star because those were created later (big bang?). For that matter, god created grass, seas and dry land before and day and night before the it states he created the sun and the moon. Scientist have shown that whales were originally land creatures that moved back into the water, but god creates whales before he creates land creatures. before the six days end god first creates the animals and then man, male and female. Then on the seventh day he rest, but it tells about him creating Adam , and then creating animals to keep Adam company. Chapter one says animals then man, chapter two says man then animals. The funniest part about the first two chapters of Genesis is that insted of giving Adam a woman companion for company, God decides to first see how adam likes sheep.
The Muslims HAVE to believe this passage in the Bible is PROOF that Jesus is a liar, or, it looks like Islam is the ONLY faith around that allows it's followers to lie to a perceived infidel. IF Muslims can get us to believe that Jesus approved of going against ONE of the Ten Commandments, the "Thou shalt not LIE" one, then, possibly, they can get us to ignore the reality of surahs 3:28 and 16:106 and, HOPEFULLY, in their eyes, LEAVE...THEM... aLOOOOONE on these two incredibly creepy, satanic scriptures that, possibly, could be the REAL reason as to WHY so many Muslims are saying they only want to live in peace... when they may not really mean it at all.
"that Jesus is a liar"
Wait, No one said that, we believe in Jesus (PBUH) as you do and respect and love him more than most of you (Christians).
And go easy on the coffee, come down : )
Well, if you believe that Jesus is NOT a liar, or, NOT a deceiver, how come you call attention to THIS article on "Christian Righteous Lying" when I call attention to surahs 3:28 and 16:106? Please make up your mind, mu.
First Stop calling me mu, I'm not your buddy.
Second, When i posted this article i never meant to make up an excuse for lying in Islam because lying is forbidden.
I wanted to show you that Christians also believe that you can lie to protect yourself or Innocent people, similar to the situation that I mentioned previously about the Jews in WW2.
But Muslims can't lie about their believes or anything else.
"But Muslims can't lie about their believes or anything else." Is this true? Doesn't that contradict what you say about surahs 3:28 and 16:106? ONE of those surahs you say a Muslim can lie to protect his life "if under duress". Please explain yourself more closely, muhairi8. You saying "But Muslims can't lie about their believes or anything else" contradicts the meaning of the surah about "guarding yourself" against the perceived infidel.
The two verses you're talking about is about protecting your life, and only in this situation but when you say Muslims can lie to non-Muslims this is not true.
Again please understand what these two verses are saying, we have the choice of protecting ourselves if someone is trying to force us convert from Islam again this is a choice if you want you can take it if you don't you can choice to die holding on your religion.
What do you think of the situation in World War II when the Christians hid the Jews and lied on the authorities so they don't kill them.
Is it considered lying? Or they were suppose to hold on their teachings.
Saying "I don't have Jews" when you help Jews, is a lie most definitely. How about just never saying anything? IF the day came where someone was given the 3rd degree that they were hiding Jews, someone must have known about it, so, it really doesn't matter about lying or not, then, does it? The SS would check anyway.
"Saying "I don't have Jews" when you help Jews, is a lie most definitely."
So you think that when the Nazis asked the Christians about the Jews they should have told them where they are hiding and not lie.
IF I were hiding Jews from the Nazis, and I knew what would happen to them if I blew their cover, I'd pray on my knees to the point where they were bloody that I'd never have to BE in that position of wondering whether or not to lie to prevent them from the ovens. Hopefully, God would keep me FROM that position so "His Chosen" could remain in my safe keeping. Corey Tenboom, a Christian, had a hiding place for Jews. She refused to blow their cover even under much slapping from an SS officer in her home (I played the SS officer in a play on her life). No matter how much he slapped her, she refused to tell. She was a TRUE hero. The Jews were found, of course, and, she was sent to a camp with her sister, who contracted a disease and died there. But, even under a lot of slapping, she DID not tell. Didn't lie, either.
A stupid argument.
How come? Because cowardess is more noble, is THAT what you mean, mu? If the guy raised his hand, you'd start screaming like a lover of Broadway Show Tunes and say, "HERE! HERE! THEY are hiding HERE!!!" And, when it was discovered that they WEREN'T hiding there... and it was found out that you had lied...what then?
If he could get away with it, he'd have to carve your head off.
"I think both are outrageous to say and you suggest you should show more respect to The Book and the followers of The Book."
Tell that to Mutainia.
I don't respect the Bible? Explain.
Explain what?
How you think I don't respect the Bible.
If the Bible IS full of lies, as Daylight says, then it needs to be used as toilet paper. The thing is, though, I can't find a lie in it. The beginning of Genesis IS problematic, I must admit. It SOUNDS like the Quran in describing the sky, even goes so far as saying there are "windows" that, eventually, are opened to cause the great Flood. Also, it SOUNDS like a sea of water surrounds the universe. Of course, though, unlike the Quran, the Bible NEVER says the sun "swims" in that water, and, never says the sun "runs to a resting place". Also, unlike the Hadith of Sahih Bukhari, it never says the sun has to ask permission of God to rise again. It DOES say the sun "hangs upon nothing", which is pretty radical. I wonder when English translated Qurans will say that instead of the sun, like the moon, orbitting the earth?
"If the Bible IS full of lies, as Daylight says, then it needs to be used as toilet paper."
Daylight never said that, but if this what you believe it is ok with us.
"It SOUNDS like the Quran in describing the sky, even goes so far as saying there are "windows" that, eventually, are opened to cause the great Flood."
Provide reference to what you're saying.
"it SOUNDS like a sea of water surrounds the universe. "
Again which surah you're talking about?
"sun, like the moon, orbitting the earth?"
I think bigcooll said that it is in your Bible not the Quran.
If it's in the Quran tell us which surah and which verse.
I'm not talking about the Quran where there is a sea surrounding the universe. I'm talking about Genesis.
So you admit that there are many stupid things in the Bible.
NOT like in the Quran. The Bible NEVER says the sun "runs to a resting place" or orbits the earth with the moon, like the Quran says. It also never says the sun asks permission of God to rise again, like your Sahih Bukhari says.
"the sun "runs to a resting place"."
36:38. And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.
The Arabic word for run or runneth is (Tajri) which means running and also moving.
About the translation of Pickthal when he said that the sun runneth to a resting place it means that it is moving to a specific place, when the sun reach that place the Sun will stop (The Day of Judgment), let me tell you something the Galaxy is moving towards the constellation Hydra, so the sun is moving towards something.
"or orbits the earth with the moon"
Reference?
If you are going judge a religion apon anyone you want to pick and choose from,
Then I say we can judge christianity from people like David Koresh of the Branch Dividian, Pat Robertson, and Jim Baker.
Congradulations, you figured out the Daylight is a religios freak like the rest of you.
"the sun "runs to a resting place"."
36:38. And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.
The Arabic word for run or runneth is (Tajri) which means running and also moving.
About the translation of Pickthal when he said that the sun runneth to a resting place it means that it is moving to a specific place, when the sun reach that place the Sun will stop (The Day of Judgment), let me tell you something the Galaxy is moving towards the constellation Hydra, so the sun is moving towards something.
"the sun "swims" in that water"
Reference?
And the Sahih Bukhari that seems to compliment Pickthal about the sun running to a resting place, or, do you not believe that part of the Hadith? Is it like that Hadith that says, "One hour of deep contemplation is worth more than sixty years of worship"?
"the sun "swims" in that water"
Reference?
Does it have to be water, mu? It just says "swims", meaning, it's of it's own effort to course accross the sky, where, eventually, it will come to a rest and ask Allah permission to rise again. Someday, though, Allah will say, "no, you rise in the West this time". Poor mu. Poor mu.