Religion – Army Specialist Jeremy Hall said he did not advertise his atheism during his service, but his views became apparent during his second deployment to Iraq.
Religion should NOT be mixed in with government - period.
You know, it continues to absolutely AMAZE me that so many people have either totally forgotten or are so totally IGNORANT of the FACT that this country was founded by people who were FLEEING from a country that FORCED a government-sponsored religion on them!!
Our founding fathers came here to get AWAY from state-sponsored religion!! Yet we have millions of people who are trying to implement that very thing!
Just mind-boggling ...
All history is reconstructionist, and I notice extensive efforts by fundamentalist and evangelical Christians to try to portray the founders as agreeing with them. What today is known as evangelicalism wasn't even a very large movement until the mid-1800s, so that's obviously not true.
Thomas Jefferson actually said in 1822 something to the effect of young men would embrace Unitarianism in his lifetime, and he even called for a Unitarian pastor to come to Virginia.
I've seen this discussed endlessly on Propeller, and while it's true that Judeo-Christianity and the various religious systems it coopted plus Greco-Roman philosophy were the basis of the indoctrination most founders received, they were not fundamentalists nor evangelicals.
Jefferson even edited the bible and the Jefferson Bible is on sale at Monticello (and on Amazon!). Separation of church of state is even more essential today--because of religious zealots, including some in high places.
The Jefferson Bible is a beautiful read even for me an atheist.
You take all that phony divinity stuff out and it makes for a quite different read. It's quite short as well. The Bible taken as parable does contain some coherant thought.
Jefferson was an absolute genius. He understood what the future held and addressed it thusly...
"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
Clearly he did not see America as a purely Christian nation.
What about his Koran?
Jefferson read many religious and philosophical books of other cultures. Scholars have suggested his primary way of learning about those cultures was by reading their own writings.
And if he meant what he said about Unitarianism, he probably thought all people would benefit from reading books of other cultures as they fashion their own beliefs.
I have several translations each of the Koran, Tao Te Ching, Bhagavad Gita, Dhammapada and other ancient religious writings. I also have newer religious writings by the original authors, such as Emma Curtis Hopkins, Ernest Holmes, Malinda Cramer, Mary Baker Eddy, as well as the Book of Mormon and Scientology writings.
It's frankly amazing how many different things people believe (or not). I think the concept of belief itself is fascinating!
bubba-
While I support the separation of church and state, as the majority of the Founders clearly did, two things should be noted. Our founders were not religious refugees; the majority were substantial men, born in the colonies, and most were at least nominally members of the Church of England, the official religion of the British Empire. And those who came here as religious refugees were usually more oppressive to other faiths than the dominant religions they left behind were to them. This is in the interest of historical accuracy, I fully agree with your ardent sentiment.
For some enlightening info on our Founders' religions and religious thought,check this out:
No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (1779)
Virginia during most of the colonial period, established the Church of England. Some sects, notably Baptists and Quakers, were actively suppressed.
Yes, Virginia was a theocracy. The church ran the state, until Jefferson & Madison changed all that. Virginia was the precursor to the separation of church and state intent in the U.S. Constitution.
I found out yesterday just how many don't understand the very Book the hold Sacred. =(
well that may explain why there have been so many wars, mass murders and inquisitions over it or because of it. tortures, hangings, stake burnings, etc. why there has been so much inhumanity because of it. and why there are soooooooo many churches too.
as for understanding it, i think i can safely say nobody does. they just believe what they want to believe and use it to fit the picture that works for them. and what works for them is what suits their power zones, their comfort zones and flatters their egos. that's pretty much what drives all people everywhere
every now and then someone rises above it all to see a bigger picture. but it's not because of any religion that they do, it's because they appreciate the value of doing just that. then they get shot down by some zealot with issues
I'm Roman Catholic, but that action by his "superior" really turns my stomach! Who is that ignoramus to forcefully mandate his religious beliefs on anybody? NOBODY has that right! Somebody should tell him that this is indeed America.
Where freedom in all forms of expressions should be respected, & left to a person's self-will, and discretion. Irregardless of what he/she believes or doesn't believe in. Don't judge a person in narrow-minded haste just because his/her beliefs happens to be different from yours.
Live,and let live, &
Leave well enough alone!
Zealots, no matter the ideology, are usually twisted individuals.
It's unfortunate that it happens to be in the armed forces of this nation which is contrary with what our founders had in mind for a democratic society.
In the words of Jesus, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." This is what many supposedly Christians forget in this open and diverse society.
Whether anyone likes it or not this nation was founded upon the constitution and the rights therein.That particular includes freedom of speech(worship and expression) and peaceful assembly.
In this context any group/individual has that right but should not infringe on anothers right. Making anyone like this situation to me even if it is subtle is coercion and is unconstitional.I am Christian and not ashamed of it but if even making someone feel uncomfortable intentionally in a group that doesn't participate to me is just as wrong as holding a gun to there head.
A person has the inherent right to PEACABLY believe/worship etc. whatever he chooses as long as they don't violate any laws or rights inherent in this system else there'd be chaos.
Am I the only one that finds it ABSURD that this young man was sent to a war zone to advance our system of democracy and to to give the Iraqi government the opportunity to implement there own Constitution to model ours while at the same time our Constitution was LOST on him?
He took an oath to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States", but apparently, the opposite isn't afforded to him.
No atheists in foxholes!
Is this your opinion or fact you are able to substantiate?
It is neither of those two things as much as it is a blatant show of disrespect to the many, many atheists who have fought on the front lines for their country.
I served in the military in the sixty's and don't ever remember having any discussions about my atheism. There were religious services available but they were not well attended. Nobody seemed to care what my beliefs were and I didn't care about theirs. We were never forced to pray and I don't remember any Evangelicals proselytizing to me. I do remember going off base and seeing a variety of religious groups vying for my attention, even feeding us just so we would listen to their message. I guess that the Evangelicals feel the need to force the issue, sorry but I'm not changing my mind.
From a Fox News article:
"Hall was a gunner on a Humvee, which took several bullets in its protective shield. Afterward, his commander asked whether he believed in God, Hall said.
"I said, 'No, but I believe in Plexiglas,"' Hall said. "I've never believed I was going to a happy place. You get one life. When I die, I'm worm food."
O.K. My husband and I are both of a non-christian, non-jewish religion. We are very proud of our religious beliefs and do not make a secret of them (well I kinda have to when commenting on stuff like this because there could be a backlash) We should not have to worry about that but we have come to expect difficulties in dealing with command issues and our religion. Maybe this lawsuit will help to change that but I am not holding my breathe. This is the ARMY we are talking about and change always comes s l o w.
Not a member? Sign-up today!
harleyb761960
getbackerzoo
nopatacious
gabriel19671968
fyuuuuut
shawnmartinez1960
DearHunter
sterlingburt19681962
hatukabu
alamala
complicious
yutcmri
MaryLynn_
deezin2
Chuck The Canuck
Helixbuilder
smanochai
wonkydonkey
siri.tongsirikul
cbanphasimavichaya
UnusualSuspect
shoshanna-2
lvrofwolves
dadan89
WarnerFSBO
Zuffa
ETproductions
david_nwpa
dandt1612
sharmdarn
AlyssaJMcCarthy
tchef
hurr1
nightcrawlerX
Wawat
gogi123
jnackrobe
rjeerapun
fekatill
weeeileen
Arten
Hanga
juvel
christina.barby
Nmall
jw.olinger
yarrkz24
swasuroot
muimui
CovalentBond
About Propeller | Frequently Asked Questions | Help
© 2003-2008 Propeller. All Rights Reserved. Terms of Use | Privacy Policy
39)
Vote
When I worked at a federal cabinet-level agency in the Office of the Secretary, my superior instructed us at a staff meeting to join hands and he said a prayer from his Missouri Synod Lutheran Church.
I was personally horrified, and later that day, 2 of my subordinates approached me, one to say he was an atheist and was very upset by the incident, and another to say she was from a different Protestant denomination, and the prayer itself was offensive. The Jewish workers said nothing, but I suspect they are just so used to this that they ignore it.
I quietly approached the executive and told him several people were quite upset at the prayer (I was one, but he didn't need to know that), and I explained that we have atheists, Jews, and others on staff.
Fortunately, he took the hint and never did it again, even going so far as to ask a group to use "happy holidays" instead of "merry Christmas" on an office banner.
Sounds like a professional way to deal with problems - professional on all sides.
Doesn't the right of religious freedom in this country also extend to "not" having religious beliefs, or believing in God?